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| Author | Topic: Good Article |
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Karen
Registered User
Registered:
5/3/2002 | posted: 11/7/2004 at 11:17:49 AM ET
From the Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1343956,00.html
|  moljul
Registered User
Registered:
4/2/2001
From:
New York
Fav. BP CD: I'll Be Your Baby Tonight
Fav. BP Song: Dublin Lady
| posted: 11/17/2004 at 4:31:37 PM ET
I didn't read the entire article but it is right on the mark. I was in Kenya for about two weeks which included election day. The entire world was watching the US presidential election and taking great interest in it. It was a very interesting time to be an American overseas. I readily expressed my opinion and support for Kerry (or rather my support to not re-elect Bush) to anyone who asked me including many Kenyans, some Brits and a few people from Pakistan. When I told one of the guys from Pakistan that I thought Dubya was a moron and the only way I could get through the disappointment of Dubya's re-election was that I knew in four years he was definitely out of the White House - the guy responded "We share your thoughts entirely". I only found one person who was rooting for Bush and she admitted to me that she really didn't follow politics and was only rooting for him because most of the Americans she knew (at the embassy) were for Bush.
Everyone else was very Anti-Bush. I overheard one guy saying to another (before the election was over) "If Bush is re-elected, its going to be hard to look Americans in the eye". One friend who is a highly educated woman from India who has resided in Kenya for quite some time said (with a great deal of passion in her voice) that she thought Bush should be killed for the way he started the war.
I was relieved to find out that many people do realize how divided a nation we are and that many Americans do not agree with Bush and the way he is handling our country and our country's actions in the world.
I just hope that he doesn't cause too much damage in the next four years that might get us attacked again. I really thought people would learn a lesson from 9/11. Thousands of innocent people died that day but I would have to say as a nation, we kind of had it coming to us. We had been living with blinders on too long and needed a big wake up call.
| EG
Registered User
Registered:
11/17/2004 | posted: 11/17/2004 at 7:30:44 PM ET
It is not Bush who's the moron, Moljul, it's you. Who the hell cares what some Europeans or "educated women from India" think about our president? Our interests are not theirs, so what's good for them is not good for us and vice versa. Many parts of Europe are despicable. France, for instance, is extremely anti-semitic right now, and has always been cowardly and a political whore. So are we to listen to them when they tell us how we should and should not defend our country? President Bush's number one priority is defending our country, and he's doing a wonderful job.
| Karen
Registered User
Registered:
5/3/2002 | posted: 11/17/2004 at 8:30:30 PM ET
Whoah, there! Nobody's a moron. I happen to agree with Moljul, but even if I didn't, there's no need for slurs like that.
"Who the hell cares" about the rest of the world? I the hell care, for one. The globe is an interconnected whole. It's unhealthy and unjust to separate one nation's "interests" (usually as defined by corporations) and elevate them above the general welfare of others on the planet.
I welcome hearing your point of view, but, in the future, could you please refrain from the personal attacks while expressing it.
|  barcelona
Registered User
Registered:
7/27/2004 | posted: 11/17/2004 at 11:18:58 PM ET
Moljul is most definitely not a moron. She posted a very accurate descpription of the world's view of America, and was broad minded in doing so, unlike you - 'many parts of Europe are despicable' - are you for real?
| EG
Registered User
Registered:
11/17/2004 | posted: 11/18/2004 at 8:57:25 AM ET
What the elites call broad-mindedness, the rest of the country calls decadence. I'm sure you also are also broad-minded enough to support gay marriage, something that the rest of the country doesn't agree with. Barcelona and Moljul represent the views of people in cities like NY, which are completely out of touch with the morals and values of ordinary Americans.
|  Jean
Registered User
Registered:
6/7/2003 | posted: 11/18/2004 at 9:20:37 AM ET
To EG:
You have devalued your "opinion", such as it is, with your xenophobia and uncalled for personal attacks on respected long-time members of this board.
I do not respect you nor will I respond further to you.
Greetings from a liberal-gay-marriage-advocate-pro-abortion-anti-church-in-state Democrat from the Great State of Maryland; long may we all live in peaceful and polite discusion of the real issues confronting our society without resorting to name calling.
|  Sister Rose
Registered User
Registered:
5/4/2004
From:
NYC | posted: 11/18/2004 at 10:07:26 AM ET
Well said Karen, Moljul, Jean and Barcelona!
"Anyone who stays home is DEAD!"
| Karen
Registered User
Registered:
5/3/2002 | posted: 11/18/2004 at 10:11:49 AM ET
Do you really believe all that stuff, or are you just throwing out a lot of right-wing cliches to see what reaction you'll get?
Call me suspicious, but alarm bells are going off in my head right now as to your sincerity.
| moljul
Registered User
Registered:
4/2/2001
From:
New York
Fav. BP CD: I'll Be Your Baby Tonight
Fav. BP Song: Dublin Lady
| posted: 11/18/2004 at 11:08:03 AM ET
Well I'm feeling very loved right now. 
I appreciate everyone coming to my defense. I too don't mind someone disagreeing with my opinion. It is after all, an opinion. However, I listen and consider others opinions more when they are part of an adult discussion not a name calling tirade.
Obviously a great deal of people agree with Bush - in fact, slightly over half of our country does. But the fact that almost half of the population does not agree is something that can not be ignored.
And the consistent opinions from those I met overseas is important to consider. Long gone are the days when we stay within out borders, carefully protected by two oceans. Citizens of the U.S. rely a great deal of other nations as they rely on us. We live in a very small world these days and need to play nicely with everyone at the playground. No one likes a bully.
|  SingOutAnnie
Registered User
Registered:
8/23/2003
From:
Bradenton/Sarasota, FLA | posted: 11/18/2004 at 11:36:48 AM ET
Bravo to Karen, Jean, Barcelona and Moljul!!
Defenders of America! *real* American values like liberty and justice and equality for all!! Free speech, freedom of thought and belief!!
Not just freedom for right-wing, white, fundamentalist christian (lower case on purpose), wealthy, selfish, warmonging xenophobes who want to make America into a theocratic fascist empire. Ladies, think burhkas aren't possible here? Think again.
Who cares what the rest of the world thinks, huh?? Would that not be unlike those of us who disagree with you, EG, saying who the heck cares what YOU think?? It's one planet, baby, and we gotta find better ways to deal with conflicts than bombing the crappe' out of those who don't go along with what we want. I just can't fathom Americans who are so selfish and piggish.
You need to get out more, bubba. There are billions of people out there in the world who are not just like you in looks, background, language, thought, religion -- nor do they want to be. They love their children, want the best life can offer them, and to be fed and safe. Is that so difficult to understand and appreciate? And, believe it or not, they might actually have some better ideas for doing things than do Americans.
I'm in a red state and in a very red part of the red state. The country is split down the middle, bubba, but we're mixed across the nation. You can't say "the rest of the country" about anything just because the stupid Electoral College is a winner-take-all system.
Just how do we dare tell the rest of the world how to run their governments, denouncing them when they don't want to follow us into folly, spouting about freedom when we decreasing freedom here? That's part of how other nations see us and our arrogant government. Walk a mile (or more) in someone else's shoes, fella.
|  leebee
Registered User
Registered:
1/19/2004
Fav. BP Song: Being Alive
Fav. BP Show: Sunday In The Park With George
| posted: 11/18/2004 at 12:52:36 PM ET
That is a very good article. I had already seen it, but I am glad to see it posted here.
It will make a few folks uncomfortable, but then it probably should.
It seems that every web page with a message board has someone on it getting terribly defensive about the president. They keep insisting that everything is going great, and if you don't agree, then zip it! After all, they won the electorate by a stunning 1%! They somehow believe that their way is the only right way, and that some shadowy big-city elite is to blame for all of their ills. It is as if they want to be totally disconnected from everything else in the world. No amount of contrary evidence or discussion will change their minds. Unfortunately, it looks as if things are going to have to get alot worse before they get better. Poverty, a looming health care crisis, a horrid war, corporate crime and a neglected environment weren't enough apparently.
| moljul
Registered User
Registered:
4/2/2001
From:
New York
Fav. BP CD: I'll Be Your Baby Tonight
Fav. BP Song: Dublin Lady
| posted: 11/18/2004 at 2:57:53 PM ET
The last two posts just made me recall a funny experience on my trip. Everyone was following the popular vote during the election but I was trying to tell them that the popular vote does not necessarily elect the president. When I attempted to explain the electoral college, I got very confused looks and questions like "Why in the world do you do it like that?" It was kind of humorous. I tried to explain that it was a system developed 200 years ago when our population was spread out over a vast country with no computers, phones, etc. to collect the popular vote in an accurate manner. Obviously the difference between the electoral vote and the popular vote is rarely an issue but I think with it being an issue in the last two elections that it will be on its way out soon. But most of the people I spoke with thought it was a pretty funny and rather bad way to elect a president. I had to agree. 
| SingOutAnnie
Registered User
Registered:
8/23/2003
From:
Bradenton/Sarasota, FLA | posted: 11/18/2004 at 4:24:51 PM ET
I majored in polisci in college, knew about the electoral college, but the reality of it did not hit me until 2000. I'd lived in a majority Democrat state until then. With the 2000 election, I realized that if I don't vote with the majority in the state in which I live, my vote gets tossed, just as if I'd had a hanging chad back in Florida. This was mind-boggling to me. It is the one singular national vote. Why is my vote not counted along with similar thinking people in Maine, California, Nevada, Ohio, the Dakotas, South Carolina? This is democracy?? This system would not be accepted in any other election. That alone has discouraged my faith in the system. The system benefits the Republicans. They are not about to change it. 
|  BleuTwinks
Registered User
Registered:
12/14/2003
From:
Arizona | posted: 11/18/2004 at 5:05:09 PM ET
I think it's funny how since the election everyone keeps talking about morality and basing our nation's definition of morality on beliefs of the evangelical Christians. I don't think there should be a national definition of morality...morality is a very personal thing...for some people it means treating all human beings with equality and respect and doing whatever you can to help the sick and suffering. For others morality means believing the Bible literally, word for word without thinking outside the box or questioning authority. Those of us who are open minded (or decadent as mentioned earlier in this thread) and believe in separation of church and state should not be called immoral.
| leebee
Registered User
Registered:
1/19/2004
Fav. BP Song: Being Alive
Fav. BP Show: Sunday In The Park With George
| posted: 11/18/2004 at 6:02:26 PM ET
To expand a bit on what BlueTwinks says; the so called "morality" voters aren't really fixated on a word-by-word interpretation of the Bible. They only fixate on the parts that they agree with. There is plenty in the Bible to support peace, pacifism, protection for the environment, aid to the poor and sick. Unfortunately, these things don't fit with the current Republican agenda, so they don't get mentioned so much!
The people who founded this country were very clear about the seperation of church and state. It was one of the foremost reasons that many of them left their homelands to begin with - to escape the persecution of state sanctioned "official" religion. We could sure use a modern day Ben Franklin or Thomas Jefferson now.
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