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| Author | Topic: Gypsy the musical vs. Gypsy, the novel |
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 UCFGuardgirl
Registered User
Registered:
6/15/2003
From:
New York City | posted: 8/30/2003 at 1:36:31 AM ET
Since I've loved Gypsy for years before the revival, and with Bernadette now playing Rose I sat down the other day and thought...hmm... might be a good time to look up the autobiography and see how the material weighs against the musical.
For the record, I have thus far read to chapter 9. And (if you've never read Gypsy) I highly recommend it. Not only are there photographs of the real Rose, and the real June and Louise, but the book itself is very engaging. It's written as a story and not as a conglomeration of facts (like many autobiographies are) and -- partly because of the writing and partly because the subject matter lends itself to it --- the prose is often very funny, witty, and heartbreaking. What comes across most are two things:
-- Louise's desperation to be loved and accepted (as a person and as a woman,) and:
-- her resentment for her mother despite the fact that she so obviously worships her. (Rose, for the record, is depicted as a slick, feminine, manipulative sort --a smooth talker -- who is not a monster, not loud and brash, but rather knows how to get what she wants by using and exploiting what she's got.)
At any rate, I came across a few scenes that I would love to have seen in the musical (but of course, we know not everything always makes it in.) The following scene really had me giggling (I'm trying to imagine how Bernadette would have played it.)
The set up:
Louise talks about how she and June were never educated. They were always on the road, and many times following a show, were accosted by child welfare services, when Rose was questioned on whether or not the children were schooled.
Well, one time, the children were actually physically taken from Rose. So Rose and Gordon (who is called Herbie in the musical) tailed the squad car carrying Louise and June, and ended up at the house for children.
Rose pulled out a hankie and started sobbing melodramatically, begging for her children back. After all, she is just a poor mother, single, hoping the act might make them a little money, trying to support her children. She tried to educate them as best she could, she claimed, but it's very expensive.
Anyhow, the social worker doesn't buy it. Finally, the woman gets so fed up and explodes at her:
"I'm sorry, but you cannot go on like this. For Gods sakes, these children are illiterate!"
And Rose, enraged, responds, "How DARE you talk to me that way?! How dare you insult my children?! I was married when both Louise and June were born -- I can show you my papers!"
Hee.
I don't have the book in front of me to type out the scene (I had to read it as a reference book in the Lincoln Center Library because they were all checked out -- now I've got it on order from amazon) or else I would have typed it out. I just wanted to share it with you guys.
Have any of you read the book? Planning on reading the book? There are SOOO many great scenes that would have translated so beautifully to the stage.
***************
Regis: And look at all this hair. My God. That's a lot of hair. Look at this. How does hair get this way?
Bernadette: Um.. it sort of grew out of my head like this.
-- Live with Regis
|  Jenny_loves_
bernadette
Registered User
Registered:
6/6/2002
From:
London | posted: 8/30/2003 at 3:43:53 AM ET
I'm planning to try and find it at my library and the libraries in my borough. I live in Bromley on the edge of London. Ruthie Henshall, Enid Blyton and H.G Wells are all from Bromley.
they say bernadette's wonderful..........and she is
xx Jenny xx
|  BP Broadway Diva
Registered User
Registered:
2/19/2003
From:
NJ
Fav. BP Song: Rose's Turn
Fav. BP Show: Gypsy
Fav. BP Character: Rose
Fav. BP CD: Sondheim Etc
| posted: 8/30/2003 at 10:14:57 AM ET
What is the name of the novel? It sounds like something I'd like to read!
*§~Danielle~§*
"Here she is Boys...Here she is World...Here's Rose!!!"
| jmslsu01
Registered User
Registered:
6/9/2003
From:
northern VA | posted: 8/30/2003 at 11:56:49 AM ET
It is interesting,but keep in mind that it is generally acknowledged that she stretched the facts,so to say,about several aspects of her life.
Her son wrote a book about his mother-I don't know the title right now,but I will look it up-that is quite good. I can't remember if he discusses the murder or not.
Jenn
| jmslsu01
Registered User
Registered:
6/9/2003
From:
northern VA | posted: 8/30/2003 at 12:13:51 PM ET
OK-found the book. It's called Gypsy and Me: At Home and on the Road with Gypsy Rose Lee. the author is Erik Lee Preminger.
I have to read it again. I had completely forgotten about that book.
Here's something from the original production that eventually was cut-a strip for Rose-but Ethel Merman had trouble with it. So it was cut. 
| StinKerRoadMann
Registered User
Registered:
8/7/2003 | posted: 8/30/2003 at 2:00:40 PM ET
I read the book about a month ago. It's interesting to see how they were able to take years worth of this memoir and put it into a play. The one dynamic that was really bizarre was the Gordon/Herbie relationship with Rose. The relationship with Gordon, the girls, and Rose is extremely different from that of the play, but I guess they needed to make it fit into the play. Both works are interesting, however, I read the New York Times interview with June that someone posted a few weeks ago, and she has a spin all her own. Who knows what the truth really was like lol. The first 2/3 of the book are really interesting though. It drops off a bit at the end, but it's still a good read for Gypsy fans.
"How'd you like them eggrolls, Mr. Goldstone?"
**Kristen**
|  Broadwaybaby17
Registered User
Registered:
3/18/2003
From:
Alabama | posted: 8/30/2003 at 3:13:11 PM ET
There's a huge article in one of the Vogue magazines a while back that is the whole story in a nutshell. They put in some really interesting facts about what other people thought of the real Rose Havoc and some things she did in her life after Louise became a stripper. It wasn't a pretty ending let's-make-up kind of thing.
Bump it with a trumpet!
| UCFGuardgirl
Registered User
Registered:
6/15/2003
From:
New York City | posted: 8/30/2003 at 10:24:07 PM ET
The book I am referring to is called "Gypsy" (just like the musical) and is usually listed under "Lee" for Gypsy Rose Lee. It's not widely availible, though, so you may not find it.
As per the stretching of truth in the novel: Yes, of course there is stretching of the truth in this book. First of all, the book is a memoir and not a technical book of facts. ALL memoirs (as in, non-fiction books that are NOT researched by an outside source for factual biographical purposes, but are instead written by the subject as creative non-fiction) are largely embellished, MOSTLY true stories. Creative non-fiction is NEVER the real truth. Why? Partly because much of the more mundane stuff (about life) doesn't translate well to prose, and partly because none of us can remember life exactly as it was. The brain just doesn't work that way.
Having studied this genre, I can safely tell you that it is called "creative non-fiction" for a reason. Here's a MILD example: you're recalling and writing about a dinner you had once with your parents. You have to reconstruct the scene in detail for your audience, but you cannot remember what shirt your father wore -- But you know he used to wear a lot of blue. So in the scene, you write that your father wears a blue shirt, even though this may not be the truth.
In short: The novel Gypsy's son wrote is no more accurate than this book. A novel June Hovick could have written would be no more accurate than this book. all the memoirs you read are heavily biased, and are only approximations and embellished recollections of life as it PROBABLY was. Not DEFINITELY was, but PROBABLY was.
***************
Regis: And look at all this hair. My God. That's a lot of hair. Look at this. How does hair get this way?
Bernadette: Um.. it sort of grew out of my head like this.
-- Live with Regis
|  moljul
Registered User
Registered:
4/2/2001
From:
New York
Fav. BP CD: I'll Be Your Baby Tonight
Fav. BP Song: Dublin Lady
| posted: 8/30/2003 at 11:40:03 PM ET
Yes, but when someone writes a memoir it is an accurate account of their life according to their memories. That's the point of a memoir. Gypsy has admitted that she changed a lot of information just to make a better story because she always liked a good story. Her comments came about when June challenged a lot of the information in Gypsy's book. It's one thing to remember an event wrong but to purposely change it to make it more interesting is far from the purpose of most memoires. I would say most memoirs are quite accurate because they are coming from the source. It may not be completely accurate because everything is from a subjective point of view but is the authors version of history. But Gypsy literally made things up and admitted to it.
By the way, this book has been rereleased after being out of print for a long time. Though it would probably still be a hard find in a library as UCFGuardgirl has said.
| UCFGuardgirl
Registered User
Registered:
6/15/2003
From:
New York City | posted: 8/31/2003 at 12:10:18 AM ET
The book is an IMPOSSIBLE find in the library. Even the NYC public library. Your best bet, honestly, is amazon. They have everything. 
I understand what you're saying moljul, but (from what I studied -- with a really terrific professor who'd published a bunch of her memoirs herself) memoirs are generally (in many cases -- not ALL, but many) partly fictionalized. It's not that the stories are not true. It's that the stories are mostly true in scope, but require embellishments and sometimes even made up events in order to "punch up" the story, and get a point across. You usually don't hear about this as a reader, though, because most memoirs (the creative non-fiction ones, and not the autobiographies) are not written by celebrities.
Fiction writers have it easy -- the characters get from point A to point B because the writer makes up the specific events to get them there. Creative non-fiction authors don't have that advantage. So many of these authors (when they're writing creative non-fiction, which is like writing history as if it were a fiction novel) make up stuff that sounds good simply to get a point across. Like Gypsy making up certain situations in order to portray her mother in the truest light she remembers her. Remember -- she wasn't jotting down the facts about her life, she wasn't writing a biography. She was telling a story, and in creative non-fiction, that means that it is loosely-based upon real life experience. In this genre, it's the scope, theme, and tone that are true and accurate. That's why it's called "creative" non-fiction.
***************
Regis: And look at all this hair. My God. That's a lot of hair. Look at this. How does hair get this way?
Bernadette: Um.. it sort of grew out of my head like this.
-- Live with Regis
| UCFGuardgirl
Registered User
Registered:
6/15/2003
From:
New York City | posted: 8/31/2003 at 12:25:45 AM ET
Edited to add:
For the record (just so you guys don't think I'm pulling your legs -- I swear I'm not, and I swear I'll shut up after I say this --LOL) there are actually two different genres of non-fiction biography/memoir.
Biography and Autobiography are the most commonly known formats of non-fiction, and are erroneously reffered to as "memoir." This type of non-fic is NOT memoir. This is the factual stuff; books that are meant to be taken at face value. This type of non-fic is written like this:
"I was born in Northshore, in New York. My parents were bakers in the area. When I was 10 years old... when I was 11 years old..." and so on and so forth. It's mainly exposition, designed to provide the reader with facts about a person's life. While told in chronological order, it's not constructed like a narrative.
Creative Non-fiction is true "memoir" format. It is told like a story, is detailed like fiction, and is not meant to be an exact representation of a person's life. Creative non-fiction is often full of embellished, and/or fictionalized situations that are used to round out the facts. They are written like this:
"The morning was cold and dark. My mother came into my small bedroom, woke me up, calling, "Gypsy, you're late. Get up!" The walls smelled of mold..."
Creative non-fic novels and biographies generally get grouped together, but I assure you, they are not the same genre. However, it is somewhat unusual for a creative non-fic author to write such a story without permission from those mentioned by name. Usually, they change the names or they get permission before they stretch the truth.
***************
Regis: And look at all this hair. My God. That's a lot of hair. Look at this. How does hair get this way?
Bernadette: Um.. it sort of grew out of my head like this.
-- Live with Regis
| jmslsu01
Registered User
Registered:
6/9/2003
From:
northern VA | posted: 8/31/2003 at 2:19:00 PM ET
There's a reason why Gypsy is titled "Gypsy-A Musical Fable." Laurents knew what he was basing the book on was by no means a factual representation of Gypsy Rose Lee's life. Although she didn't care what was changed-she just wanted it to be titled Gypsy. :-) And June Havoc,BTW,has written two memoirs. I haven't read them,though,so can't tell you much about them. But Preminger's is quite good-it was written in the early 80s.
I've never heard anyone refer to a biography as a memoir. Autobiographies,yes,but I've always thought that there was a distinction between a memoir and autobiography. For some reason,I thought memoir was more like a recollection of stories in a person's life at one stage or another. Autobiographies start with birth and continue to the present-that's how I separated the two in my mind. But there is a difference between "improving" on a story and making up entire stories. And yes,I am a bit wary of celebrity children's memoirs,but I wouldn't say Preminger's is no more accuate than is his mother's memoir. I don't see how they can be compared,since they aren't even covering much of the same time period.
Thanks for your discourse on "creative nonfiction." I didn't mind it at all,since I'm always up for learning new things. :-)I've never heard that term before. But I think calling Gypsy's memoirs "creative nonfiction" is too nice. I guess Anna Leonowens also wrote "creative nonfiction" when she wrote her memoir about teaching at the court of Siam. That's another creative memoir.
While we're on the subject-Ethel Merman also wrote an autobiography. Or it might have been a memoir. Unfortunately,UCFGuardGirl,I don't know how creative it was. ;-)
Jenn
| UCFGuardgirl
Registered User
Registered:
6/15/2003
From:
New York City | posted: 8/31/2003 at 4:31:58 PM ET
lol! I haven't read the Erik Preminger novel, but one of these days I'll have to. Everyone's been saying it's worth the read.
Jmslsu01, have you ever read Mommy Dearest? It's a fairly infamous movie, but it's based on the book by Christina Crawford, who is Joan Crawford's adopted daughter. That book takes a number of liberties as well (and I heard that Christina's brother had objections similar to June Hovick's.)
When I first decided to read Gypsy, I'd thought it was an autobiography. (And I wanted to see what the real Rose looked like, of course.) Then I started reading it and realized it was not an autobiography. I mean, when there are scenes in the book that the author could not possibly been present to hear... well, that's when you start to wonder.
There's another scene in it that I like, though. Actually, I think I prefer the way "Herbie" and Rose meet in the novel. Rose and the girls are playing hide and seek in the theatre where they're supposed to perform later on that night, and Louise is "it." She hears a giant crash, and then hears June wailing. Rose pops up from where she's hiding and starts crying, "Oh my God, what's happened? June!" And they rush up to the stage and pull back the curtains. June is sitting in the lap of a strange man, who is saying, "there, it's all right. Just a little crash, see?" As it turned out, a prop had crashed to the ground and frightened June.
I supposed I just liked the idea of Rose playing hide and seek with her daughters. It was a sort of tame, sweet moment. Louise described it as "one of her favorite things to do with her mother." It's a nice thought, at the very least.
***************
Regis: And look at all this hair. My God. That's a lot of hair. Look at this. How does hair get this way?
Bernadette: Um.. it sort of grew out of my head like this.
-- Live with Regis
| jmslsu01
Registered User
Registered:
6/9/2003
From:
northern VA | posted: 9/1/2003 at 10:35:40 AM ET
I read Mommy Dearest many years ago. One of Bing Crosby's kids wrote about his father,and one of the siblings (or more) objected as well. I've never read it.
I mentioned Ethel Merman's autobiography earlier-it was written,I believe,in the late 70s,so it was not too long before she developed her brain tumor and died and,I think,after her daughter died from a drug overdose,which absolutely broke her heart (despite stories of her "attitude",she was a devoted mother by all accounts. She even quit the business for a while and moved the family to Denver and stayed at home with the children. But that didn't last too terribly long.). So she does discuss Gypsy (the musical,that is-don't know if she discusses the actual GRL,but I do know that she did see the show. Liked Merman,but hated Sandra Church) in her autobiography (of course,it will be from her point of view!).
Oh-I do remember that she left a page blank concerning one of her marriages! I need to reread it.
Jenn
| RobRamos
Registered User
Registered:
4/1/2003 | posted: 9/1/2003 at 3:51:51 PM ET
June Havoc's two books, EARLY HAVOR and MORE HAVOC, are exceptionally well-written, and provide an illuminating look at June's life after leaving the act and trying to make it the business. These fine memoirs tell a story than the one told by Gypsy, which of course formed the basis for the musical--but GYPSY herself admitted to embellishments of her life story, and the tale told by Havoc is more likely the closest version to the true story of this family we will ever hear. June Havoc is an extraordinary woman.
| RobRamos
Registered User
Registered:
4/1/2003 | posted: 9/1/2003 at 3:52:50 PM ET
Sorry for the typo--I mean, of course, EARLY HAVOC!
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