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BroadwayBabyGal
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5/8/2003 | posted: 1/25/2007 at 5:15:51 PM ET
quote:
Jean, thank you for copying out Bernadette's letter to Stella. I love the word "choice" and the context in which it is used. It reinforces my own belief that these special creatures who enter our lives as our pets are free-thinking little individuals, each and every one.
My thoughts exactly.
Jessica
| Karen
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5/3/2002 | posted: 1/25/2007 at 7:10:39 PM ET
But if animals have free will then wouldn't it follow that they are capable of wrongdoing and guilt and therefore subject to punishment? I dunno. That doesn't sound quite right. Isn't that anthropomorphizing? Or is that term considered infuriating and condescending to true animal lovers? Questions, questions, lots of questions...Who can provide any answers to satisfy my puzzlement?
| BroadwayBabyGal
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5/8/2003 | posted: 1/25/2007 at 7:20:26 PM ET
I think animals are a lot more complex than we than we give them credit for. That's all I'll say for now. 
Jessica
| Scottie
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Registered:
3/6/2006
From:
Edinburgh, Scotland | posted: 1/25/2007 at 7:35:56 PM ET
When it comes to my dog - someone (close to me) has often accused me of anthropomorphizing. My answer is "Yes, and what's up with that?"
I agree with Bernadette as I absolutely know that my dog excercises "choice". In fact - I can truthfully say (without sounding too weird I hope)that my dog can be observed displaying many "human" traits such as embarrassment and guilt. When she doesn't get her own way she very often goes into what can only be described as a "sulk" and sits with her face buried in the corner of the sofa and resolutely refuses to look at anyone. Now, what can be more "human" than a good old-fashioned sulk?
as Bernadette says....just keep moving on.....
|  Rose
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Registered:
9/28/2003
From:
NY
Fav. BP Song: No One Is Alone and Some People
Fav. BP Show: Gypsy
Fav. BP Character: Rose/The Witch
Fav. BP CD: Gypsy
| posted: 1/25/2007 at 8:00:07 PM ET
My dog sulks too. She goes into the corner and walks out of the room if we try to pet her. She also gets ashamed.
"Oh no, you won't. No, not a chance. No arguements, shut up and dance." -You'll Never Get Away From Me
"And if it wasn't for me then where would you be Miss Gypsy Rose Lee?" -Rose's Turn
| jmslsu01
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Registered:
6/9/2003
From:
northern VA | posted: 1/25/2007 at 8:58:55 PM ET
I definitely think animals can show signs of guilt and embarrassment. Their guilt and embarrassment may not be like the human equivalent of guilt and embarrassment, but I think there's something there.
When I was a child, we had a dog who would dig under the fence and escape. This happened only a few times before we fixed the situation. My dad took the car out to go look for him. He saw him trotting along the side of the road, accompanied by another dog.
"Beau!" shouted my dad.
Beau froze. The other dog took off.
"Come here!"
Beau walked to the car, head down. Tail down. He got in the car, but instead of jumping on the passenger seat like he normally would, he crouched on the floor of the seat.
He didn't get punished or anything, but he knew that dad meant business. Now, I don't think he internalized feelings of guilt like a person would. But I do think he had a sense, from my dad's voice, that this wasn't dad's normal playful voice, and that something was up, and that he was the cause of it. He didn't feel guilty that he made us worried. A child that has taken off without permission, on the other hand, can understand that his mommy was scared that she couldn't find him., and feel sorry that he made his mommy scared.
Dogs are rather like two or three year olds. Everything centers around them. If a parent walks into a room where his/her child is and acts mad, the child will probably internalize it and think the parent is mad at him/her. Some animal psychologists will tell you the same thing. If you walk into a room where your dog is and you stomp around and yell, the dog (so they say) will think that you are mad at him/her, and act "guilty" or shows signs of appeasement.
Now, this is just bits I've picked up from reading general trade nonfiction about animals and animal behavior. It seems like there isn't a knee-jerk reaction to deny more complex animal emotions as there was in the past. Now that psychologists agree that infants can show preferences and interest-basically what mothers have known for centuries-they're acknowledging animal emotions as well.
(We said Beau would sulk too. He would go into a corner and deliberately turn his back on us. This was very rare, as he was a spoiled little doggie. But we did see it.)
Jenn
The Kiddosphere @ Fauquier: http://kiddosphere.blogspot.com/
children's media reviews
| Karen
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5/3/2002 | posted: 1/25/2007 at 9:03:49 PM ET
Are you all saying that they're somewhat equivalent morally to children--having a degree of free will but not enough for culpability/responsibility?
Possibly. I still tend to think it's all instinct, but you may be right.
You know, it's funny but I remember when that letter of Bernadette's was first posted here several years ago. I, too, was very struck by Bernadette's comment about her dog making a choice to be kind and loving. Only my reaction was "But that's completely impossible."
| Karen
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5/3/2002 | posted: 1/25/2007 at 9:06:40 PM ET
Oh wow, sorry Jenn. I was writing my post before yours was up.
| jmslsu01
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6/9/2003
From:
northern VA | posted: 1/25/2007 at 9:22:29 PM ET
Karen, I have to agree with you on "choosing" to be kind and loving. That opinion is the opinion of someone who probably treats her pets as if they were children, which is definitely, definitely not uncommon among childfree pet owners (and even among families with children, and especially among empty nesters. Our Beau would get a Christmas stocking every year, and he visited Santa Paws when he was a puppy.) Stella's good nature is probably just in her nature and probably due to the fact that she was rescued as a puppy, where the damage was more easily reversible than if she had been an older dog. I'm not sure, but it sounds as if she was adopted fairly quickly after being rescued, and to a very dog-centered family.
I don't think the free will is the same as a child's free will. However, the theory of discipline is similar. When a dog or a child acts out, the behavior must be corrected immediately. If discipline and redirection are delayed, the connection will not be made, which is not fair to the child or the dog. However, the older the child is, the less immediate the correct need be. I don't think that works the same way with older dogs.
I think the self-centeredness, which is a neutral and nonjudgemental term (they are what they are at their stage of development), is similar. The difference is that as the child gets older, empathy for others emerges (unless there is some awful disconnect). A child may understand the effects his/her actions have on others, depending on the maturity and level of empathy in the child; a dog probably does not. A child can truly feel sorry, and not because he/she has lost privileges. I don't think a dog feels the same kind of "sorry." It's always about him/her.
The Kiddosphere @ Fauquier: http://kiddosphere.blogspot.com/
children's media reviews
| jmslsu01
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Registered:
6/9/2003
From:
northern VA | posted: 1/25/2007 at 9:39:47 PM ET
Now, if I had been right in front of her, looking at her and listening to her (instead of reading it in a letter posted on a website) say that Stella did, in fact, chose to be kind, I wouldn't say the above. Just like I wouldn't tell a mother that, in fact, her baby is not the most beautiful baby I have ever seen.
Regardless of cold hearted science, all good doggies want to be good, and all babies are beautiful. Even if you think otherwise, the opposite party will not be persuaded, and who exactly made you the king of the world and expert on everything? ;-)
But seriously, if you're interested in the subject, Jeffery Moussaieff Masson is one of the most accessible authors on animal emotions. His books are very popular, so you should be able to find them easily at the library or at a local bookstore. Dogs Never Lie About Love and When Elephants Weep are two of his most well-known titles. Elizabeth Marshall Thomas is also a good author to check out, as is Temple Grandin. Since these authors are writing about animal emotions/psychology, their books have been met with some criticism. Do with that as you will.
Jenn
The Kiddosphere @ Fauquier: http://kiddosphere.blogspot.com/
children's media reviews
| BroadwayBabyGal
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5/8/2003 | posted: 1/25/2007 at 10:27:52 PM ET
You'll probably think I'm crazy, but a little-known fact about myself is that I'm a cat psychic. I won't betray the trust of my kitty friends, but I can tell you that cats are very complex, deep-feeling, deep-thinking creatures. I have been shocked by some of the things they've told me.
Jessica
| Karen
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5/3/2002 | posted: 1/25/2007 at 10:43:24 PM ET
Now THAT cries out for more explanation. 
| BroadwayBabyGal
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5/8/2003 | posted: 1/25/2007 at 10:57:38 PM ET
I don't really have an explanation. I just have the ability to communicate with cats, as long as they're willing to open up to me.
Jessica
| Karen
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5/3/2002 | posted: 1/25/2007 at 11:10:55 PM ET
Hmm, fair enough.
| Scottie
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3/6/2006
From:
Edinburgh, Scotland | posted: 1/26/2007 at 3:12:43 PM ET
Coming home tonight I was only half-listening to the radio but my ears picked up when I heard they were talking about guide dogs for the blind. Apparently the Royal National Institute of The Blind in London make it a practice to screen potential guide dog puppies for "depression".
The radio presenter then went on to talk about a spate of reported "dog suicides" that took place in the UK last year. .... On my dog's life - I'm not making this up!
as Bernadette says....just keep moving on.....
| Karen
Registered User
Registered:
5/3/2002 | posted: 1/26/2007 at 3:47:33 PM ET
I heard that too. Apparently, they're all jumping off a bridge in Scotland.
Gosh, I wonder why all the weird stuff always happens there? 
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